MP E.Bat-Uul talks about the political situation.

How are you spending your time during the Parliament break?

Our breaks do not mean the MPs are on vacation. Working groups meet regularly, and MPs visit their constituencies. I went to an international conference in Geneva to speak about the President’s views on the death penalty. His move on a moratorium has greatly increased Mongolia’s reputation among European countries.

But is there support for this law inside Mongolia?

Possibly no, as our people take the death penalty as part of life. They are so used to it that and resistance to any sudden change is natural. I personally support the President.

But three 18-year-old citizens were given the death penalty only recently…

People are sent to death for certain crimes. But nobody cares to explore why they committed such crimes. I’ll use this opportunity to say a few things. History is full of instances when this penalty has been used for political reasons. Mongolia failed in its attempt to abolish the death penalty in 1922, maybe under foreign pressure. If we had succeeded, there wouldn’t have been the massacre in 1939. Thousands of monks could be killed only because the law provided for a death penalty. Even though the USA is a democratic country, political reasons led to people being executed in the 1950s on suspicion of being communist or spying for Russia. The death penalty can alays be misused, so it is always better to abolish it altogether.

Secondly, there will always be mistakes during trial and innocent people will be executed. Even in the USA, which has a good judicial system, many people were  executed and later found to have no links with the crime. A judge is just a man, and can always make mistakes. This is the law of nature.

Thirdly, people are given the death penalty without adequate consideration of their motives. I give another example from the USA. A policeman tried to rob a woman collecting money for the treatment of her sick son. She killed him. In the USA one is given the death penalty for killing policemen but in this case the policeman was corrupt.

Fourth, some people show no remorse before execution. Everybody should be kade to feel responsible for their crime. In Europe, the death penalty has been replaced by long jail terms. That is the proper punishment.

But why should a criminal be fed at the taxpayers’ expense?

There is no escape from such things in society. In any case, how many of these cases will we have? Currently, only 20 among 6,000 have been given the death sentence. Feeding these 20 will not make much difference to the economy. If we don’t wish to feed them, let’s just close the prisons and free the prisoners.

Do you think it was right to execute Ts.Tumengerel for killing Badraa?

I cannot comment on the court decision, but what I know is that Tumengerel died without revealing many secrets. This is what we must think about. What was behind his killing Badraa? Maybe there were some who are happy that the truth will now not be know.

Was there a political reason?

I have no authority to judge the court decision. I have the right to only suspect and guess. Whatever led to the murder, now the proof is gone.. Thus, we have to look at it from different angles to talk about the death penalty.

Let’s talk about other things. You have always spoken about reforming the DP. Why didn’t you join the Union of Democratic Forces?

I have stopped caring about reforming a political party or dismissing a Government. Society needs much bigger changes, something akin to a revolution. This will not come by reforming a party or replacing a Prime Minister with another. I’m surprised how our officials continue with their old goals without realizing that society is longing for a complete overhaul. Officials think only of their respective parties, not realizing they have to adopt revolutionary policies to meet people’s demands.

Do you see the UDF as also looking for official power?

I’ve heard everything they talked about in their meeting. What specific idea did they offer on how to fulfill the people’s wish? What exactly is their political program? None. They even said they wanted to protect the rights of people in government service. This is a violation of the government service law. Party members asked me when I visited my constituency, “What about us? Don’t we have rights simply because we are not in government service? Why are we being discriminated against?”

These questions must be answered. Who occupies an official seat is a small matter. Politicians who are talking small things will not be successful. No one will support them. Mongolian people are like chess players. They know what the other person wants to do. It is childish to expect everyone else to be like you, to have the same views. Our politicians must meet more ordinary people and go to the countryside, to realize where the country is and what people understand and want.

What do the people want?

Revolution, change, call it what you want. The bottom line is that people know the present situation is not right. They do not approve of the economy, the polity. and of the ethics behind both. Politicians have the responsibility to usher in the change.

What do you suggest?

Revolution. Let’s have a lower chamber in Parliament whose members will come from the soums and regions. Without this, the political high posts are in the hands of few people. Ministries and government organizations are like their private property.  Oligarchs are like comets. When an oligarch is appointed to a post, his tail is tied to the ministry. Without your noticing it, the ministries and other departments go into the hand of party factions. That ministry will serve the faction, not the people.

People don’t like the word oligarch anymore. Even the oligarchs are talking about fighting oligarchy. Who are our oligarchs? Don’t they have names?

I’m often asked this, and  I say I will not gve names. If I point at them, my movement will turn into a revolution against certain people. Working against certain people is called political overturn, not revolution. Revolution is to change the system that is giving birth to the oligarchs.

Some think there can be no revolution without violence. Isn’t that a desperate way to do things?

Citizens are desperate. There are also people who are encouraging them to make a violent revolution. But it is a small fraction.  A man has the most valuable thing which is called “calmness”. I remember it all too well. The July 1 incidents have triggered fear and instability in society. Elder people fear it is the beginning of a civil war. They fear that their calm life is going to an end. What will happen if Mongolia becomes like African countries where there is constant war and bloody fighting between groups? Life is hard. But without calmness, it will be a disaster. Thus, I will demand from law enforcement authorities that they stop any attempts to use force. If political power is taken by force once, the cycle of force will continue. A violent revolution breeds people who cannot be controlled. The officials who come to power will not be able to fulfill their promises in a short period of time and will generate fresh violent discontent. The country will be in the hands of a dictator. Any violent revolution will kill the democracy. There is a theory which says if 100 or 200 people die in a protest; society will never be stable because there are 2000 people behind each dead person including friends and relatives. The outcome is the creation of a certain group that wants revenge. 1000 people that want revenge are stronger than 1 million people who want to live calmly. Thus, we were able to make the calm revolution in 1990s.

MP Kh.Temuujin criticized your suggestion of a bicameral Parliament as old-style thinking…

We’ve been arguing about this just before you came. We will argue in the future. I like arguing with Kh.Temuujin.

Didn’t you get angry when he said you should resign if you can’t solve the problems?

Of course I am angry. But it is good to argue with him because the argument is made at an intellectual level. We don’t talk about official posts or about who must become a minister. We argue about what the government and society must be like. We argue in a policy level. The two of us just quarreled.

Were you able to change each others’ policy?

No. So I asked him to quarrel openly, instead of arguing in a room corner. He agrees. I am happy with young people like Kh.Temuujin. Intellectual arguments show a politician’s power. If I lose to Kh.Temuujin I will say straight that he was right and it is time for me to resign.

Are there really such healthy arguments in your party?

There are. Our party has many members. There are those who argue and there are many who think about just official seats. The MPRP is the same. Look at the quarrel between S.Bayar and N.Enkhbayar. One blames the other for cheating him and the other says he did not. Who cares about that? Society does not have any interest about that. The people want totally different things.

But won’t that small argument be followed by a big change? What will happen if N.Enkhbayar comes back to politics?

N.Enkhbayar is very much in politics. If we are going to talk about a certain man named N.Enkhbayar, I have no interest. I haven’t seen any other thing in his interview except his complaints about how he was cheated. N.Enkhbayar won’t be able to stand firm in political arena this way. If a man who was once the President of the country thinks he will attract people by saying such things, it means he does not understand society. I have to say it is a small issue.

The Mongolian Democratic Union’s role in the UDF is big. You are a member of MDU, right?

Yes, I am. But I’ve told that I will not join the UDF. Society wants revolution, not a new faction that opposes the Altan Gadas faction.

Altan Gadas is often criticized but I did not think the other factions would unite against Altan Gadas. What happened?

Yes, it has become too big and this causes resentment. But I am not interested in any fight between two factions. What I am worried is the DP does not have the answer to people’s call. If DP keeps on like this, it will be erased from politics. MPRP is like an immovable rock; nobody expects significant changes in and from it. But the DP is the symbol of change and innovation. If we don’t have clear political goal and policies, we won’t be able to damage MPRP. DP on the other hand will fall into chaos.

MPRP is attracting young blood. But DP is the same. Why?

That is an overstatement. We have many young people. Political parties have young and old, women and men. The most important thing is not biological age. How many of the young people who are saying “You’ve gotten old and must resign” are proposing good policies? There are few, including Kh.Temuujin. Kh.Temuujin’s words have meaning. I’m not saying he is always right. He says his policy is right and mine is old. Others are just eyeing the seats. Political arena is where we talk about policies, not age. I tell the young people to become better than us, make good policies and prove it right. They seem to be thinking their fight for official seat is the politics of the new era. This is nothing new.

It seems you don’t have much support at the decision making level?

I’m supported by, for example, students. Students are a healthy force to make revolution because they worry about their future. They worry about the society they will live in. They don’t have personal or political interests. They are not divided into factions. Politicians who are exiled to regions will support me. All the administrations in rural areas, whether they are MPRP or DP, supported me when I met them. They support my ideas for a second chamber in Parliament. If people come out and publicly declare their support, which stupid politician will ignore them, especially when the 2012 election is near.

How was it like becoming the Hero of Mongolia?

There is one bad thing. People are calling me Hero instead of Bat-Uul. I hate this. I have a name given by my father. I really like being called by my name.

You left Government House hastily, after you received the award. Why?

I was overwhelmed and I imagined my mother asking me, “What did you do to get this honorr?” That’s when I thought I should leave. Personally, I don’t much like public awards.